HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

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fantomark
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Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:35 am

HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by fantomark »

Ciao From Italy!



I have just found this forum, which I have found very informative, and that perhaps may also help me in identifying the Reminton Rolling block that have been in my family for over a century!

It belonged to my grand-grand father.
He was a timber merchant in the Italian Colony of Eritrea, having an office in Asmara.
When his son (ie: my grand father) eventually decided to close the business just before WWII, all his collection of Sudanese and Abyssinians weapons was moved back to Italy, and most of it is still in my possession.

The collection includes a Remington Rolling Block that was definitely purchased by my grand grand father in Abyssinia, Egypt or the Sudan - he did a lot of travelling for business in this area.


Unfortunately the original Customs Declaration Documents listing all weapons in my grandfather's possession when they were tranferred to Italy only state : "Remington Rolling Block Rifle - caliber: .43 Egyptian".

However there are no markings at all on this Rifle, apart from the Remington Patent Markings on the upper tang. It is a standard 2 -band rolling block with a a curved buttplate.
(while most of the Egyptian Army Rifles I have seen are the longer 3 band types)



While it is a well know fact that ex-Vatican Remingtons were issued by the Italian Authorities to Abyssinian and Sudanese "friendlies", this is positively not one of the "Pope's guns". All of the ones I have seen having the famed "Crossed Keys" of St. Peter makings, a straight buttplate, and most importantly being chambered in a cartridge unique to the Vatican, the 12.7 x 45.



An "Abyssinian" Remington may be the answer, perhaps!

The Abyssinians were well equipped with Remington rifles and ammunition, having captured them in battle from both the Egyptians and the Mahdists. All of these rifles must have been in .43 Egyptian, so - just maybe - the Abyssinians , who did shop for firearms around the world (including Italy!!) with which to fight the Italians, may have placed some orders for new Remingtons in .43 Egyptian, to top up their existing stock of rifles , requiring the new rifles to be in the same caliber they already had.



This is just and educated guess, however, since I have not been able to to find any confirmation of an Abyssinian order for Remingtons in .43 Egyptian.





The only other alternative I can think of is that this rifle is just and simply an "unmarked" Egyptian Remington.

Assuming that at least some of the rifles supplied to the Egyptian Army were of the shorter, 2-band types and devoid of any markings.

Some Egyptian Remingtons are known to have been passed over to the Italians (When Massowah was ceded by the Egyptians to the Italians, the Italian occupation forces inherited also a good supply of weapons and ammo., including Remington rifles).

Originally, the Italians used these to equip their Bashi bazouks and friendlies.

But eventually some Surplus Egyptian Army Rifles found their way into the hands of private purchasers: in my collection I do have a Martini-Henry definitely purchased by my grand-grand father as an ex Egyptian Army Rifle (It is mentioned as such in one of his letters home!) . Unfortunately, on the contrary, for the Remington all evidence is lost or never existed , so any help for you Remington experts would be highly appreciated!!



Cheers !



Marco
stanforth
Posts: 173
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Location: Oxford England

Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by stanforth »

I have an unmarked Egytian Remington but mine is 3 band. It is in superb condition and has certainly never seen Egypt.
In 1870 Egypt renaiged on their order for Rolling Block rifles to allow the rifles to be sent to France who were then at war with Prussia and very short of arms. Maybe, like mine, yours is one of these French/Egyptian Rolling Blocks.
JV Puleo
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:45 am

Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by JV Puleo »

First, pictures would be a big help, especially of both sides of the breech and with the action open look in at the breechblock.

Does your rifle have a concave-base breechblock? If so, it is from the 1st contract. All, or nearly all, of the 1st contract rifles were delivered by January of 1870, five months before the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian War. The voluntary default story is a myth, though there was an involuntary default by the Egyptians at a later date and probably on a later order.

What is the exact wording of the tang stamping, especially the way the Remington name is given, and the last patent date?

Does your rifle have a saber-bayonet lug? If so, it is probably an Egyptian Musketoon. All known examples have flat-base breechblocks and rotary extractors. They are the last Egyptian rifles delivered and were made well before September of 1880 - probably around 1874-75. There are no known Egyptian "acceptance/issue" marks as such. The marks commonly seen are numbers, the exact meaning of which isn't known, or ownership marks for the Egyptian police in the 20th century. Arms that were captured by the Abyssinians are sometimes marked in Amheric but this appears to have been a personal thing and by no means required or even commonplace.

The Papal RBs are in .50 caliber, not easily mistaken for .433 but you never know. It appears that some didn't get the papal tiara marking but this is because they were private property or weren't delivered before the fall of Rome. The Papal RBs that went to Ethiopia were taken from the Roman army and sold by the Italian government so I would assume they should have it.

Also...keep in mind that the Egyptian model was available for sale to any country that wanted it. We have no way of knowing how many may have been sold directly to other Middle-Eastern or North African countries. When Menelik II was unable to buy more Papal RBs from Italy (because he'd already bought nearly all of them) he may well have gone shopping for Egyptian models. The Abyssinians also captured a huge number of Egyptian models from the Egyptian Army and from the Sudanese Mahidists and any of these sources are reasonable.

Buy George Layman's new RB book (starts shipping around Jan 15th) ... there is quite a bit in it about the Egyptian rifles that has never been published before.
fantomark
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Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:35 am

Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by fantomark »

Ciao!

Thanks for the really useful info.!!

Here are additional details requested:

1-INSCRIPTIONS ON TANG: (only partly legible: a question mark (?) means not legible

REMINGTON'S. ILION. N.Y. USA
PATD MAY 3 1864. MAY 7. JUNE 11. NOV. 12. DEC. 24. 1872
DEC31. 1872 SEPT ? 1873 JAN. ? MARCH ?? ??? (perhaps 1874)


2-SABER-BAYONET LUG: YES

3-OVERALL LENGTH: 115.5 CM (= 45.47 inches.)

4- CALIBER: Definitely .43 EGYPTIAN


I have taken some photos which I am attaching. Hope they will help.
Really many thanks for your help!!!

Ciao!

Marco
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fantomark
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Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by fantomark »

more photos.....
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fantomark
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Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by fantomark »

...last photos...!

Ciao!

Marco
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JV Puleo
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Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by JV Puleo »

An Egyptian Musketoon and in remarkably nice condition too, probably because your great-grandfather acquired it when it was still fairly new. They are much more rare than the 3-band rifles. It couldn't have gone to France because it was made long after the Franco-Prussian War was over. They must have been among the last of the Egyptian models made, most likely in 1874-1875. This is the first example I have noted with a side extractor...all of the others have rotary extractors. Remington didn't receive the final payment on the Egyptian rifles until September of 1880 but, prior to that, thousands were stored in warehouses in Birmingham. Total production of all types was slightly less than 200,000 but we have no way of knowing how many were musketoons like yours. While waiting for their money, Remington made a serious effort to sell them to other buyers. We don't know to what extent they succeeded so the chance remains, that even though it was likely made for Egypt, it may have been sold elsewhere.
fantomark
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:35 am

Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by fantomark »

Ciao!

and realy many thanks for your prompt and exhaustive reply!

It is really nice to know at las what my great-grandfather RB is, after having it in the family for so long!
What a great thing indeed is the web, with its opportunity of sharing info worldwide!

Yes, it's definitely in good condition and also the bore is really in good shape.
My great grand father was a keen big game hunting enthusiast, but he must have favoured his other rifles for hunting purposes, including his Martini-Henry and a Vetterli as well.

Thanks again for your assisitance and all the best from Italy.

Cheers!

Marco
oldremguy
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Location: Rochester, NY

Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by oldremguy »

Here is a photo for my collection showing some soldiers with there Egyptian 2-band Remington Rolling Block Rifles.
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Have a good day,
Matt
fantomark
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Re: HELP WITH AN ABYSSINIAN/EGYPTIAN (?) REMIGTON FROM ITALY

Post by fantomark »

Thanks, Matt!

Wonderful pic!

Ciao!

marco
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