Model 14, is it a .30 or a .32? When was it made?

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m0ondoggy
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Model 14, is it a .30 or a .32? When was it made?

Post by m0ondoggy »

Hello. I have a Model 14 that says it's .30 Rem on the barrel, but the receiver has a brass medallion on the left side that looks like a case head and says .32 Rem on the bottom and UMC in the middle. The receiver was drilled all the way through so this medallion could be installed, I'll try to get pictures of it later. Is this possible this was factory rechambered? I measured the bore and it measures identically to my .32 Model 8.

Also, I believe this gun pre-dates the 1921+ manufacturers dating charts.

Any idea when this thing was made?

C
4826

Thanks
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shot1too
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Post by shot1too »

The receiver of your rifle was made in 1912. The ammuntion indicator seems to be the right one for the date. The factory would not have left the 30 Rem marking on the barrel. I would slug the barrel prior to shooting if there is any question about the caliber. I have not tried to chamber a 32 in a 30 chamber, but I could see where it might be possible.

Loren RSA
shot2once
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Post by shot2once »

if a 32 Rem cartridge falls into the chamber fully, and you say that the muzzle end is definately a .32 caliber, then both ends are .32 and the middle should be the same. if the 32 Rem cartridge hangs up where the neck hits the chamber, then you have a 32-30 for which there is no known ammunition. if like you suggested, it was rechambered, then it also would have had to be reamed and rifled to .32 caliber, alot of work and expense.
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m0ondoggy
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Post by m0ondoggy »

As an unscientific test, I dropped a .308 Sierra SPBT down the bore of my .32 Model 8, and it slides right down and drops out the chamber. It doesn't go down the 14, but it slips in more than I thought it would, but just a few thousandths. My guess is the gun is almost 100 years old, so it probably has a bit of muzzle wear, which is where I got the false reading.

I'm pretty sure it's a .30 Rem, but I can't figure out what that medallion is for. I'll post a picture of it tonight hopefully.
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shot1too
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Post by shot1too »

If you are talking about the thing that looks like a shellhead on the left side of the receiver, you are looking at the ammunition indicator (factory name). It is a brass plug that covers a hole used to locate the receiver dunring the manufacturing process. It is suppose to have the correct caliber of the rifle on it. All model 14 and 141 rifles have this characteristic in common.
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m0ondoggy
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Post by m0ondoggy »

shot1too wrote:If you are talking about the thing that looks like a shellhead on the left side of the receiver, you are looking at the ammunition indicator (factory name). It is a brass plug that covers a hole used to locate the receiver dunring the manufacturing process. It is suppose to have the correct caliber of the rifle on it. All model 14 and 141 rifles have this characteristic in common.
Interesting, the receiver says 32, but the barrel says 30. Possibly rebarreled at some point? That at least solves what the thing actually is for me. Thank you.
If it goes bang, I like it.
John Gyde
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Post by John Gyde »

Could the brass "shell case head" have been replaced???
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m0ondoggy
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Post by m0ondoggy »

John Gyde wrote:Could the brass "shell case head" have been replaced???
It's entirely possible. I have no way of knowing for sure. I'll try to get pictures up soon. Playing with my kids at night has been the first priority :D
If it goes bang, I like it.
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m0ondoggy
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Post by m0ondoggy »

Here are some quick pictures of the rifle in question.

Image

Image

Image
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rem141
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Post by rem141 »

Moondoggy, I think that after you determine what the caliber is, it will be what is stamped on the barrel. The ammunition indicator (AI) may have been replaced as John said or the barrel may have been replaced with a 30 caliber. I think we should try to date the barrel to see if it may have been replaced with a later one. There are seven different roll marks containing the patents. First one ends with 10 (1910), second with 12, next three with 13 and last 2 are only 2 lines. Yours should be the first one --10. What does yours say? After looking at your pictures I see that the (AI) says REM-UMC, which is what the second, third and fourth AIs were marked. The first one was marked UMC, your rifle should have that one. You indicated that the AI said UMC which threw Loren and the rest of us off as to the date of it. Let's see if the barrel matches the date of the receiver. If the barrel was replaced, it was done by the owner, not the factory. The factory would have changed the AI to the correct caliber.
shot1too
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Post by shot1too »

Rem141 and I have been talking about your rifle. I looked at your photos and noticed the the indicator does not appear to be recessed below the surface of the receiver. This is not correct for a rifle with your serial number. I don't shoot my 14s but rem141 does. He told me that a 32 Rem will not chamber in a 30Rem. I also took a close look at a photo that shows the left side of your barrel. I can clearly see the letter J near the receiver but it looks like there may be another set of stamps below the J. Check to see if there is a set of two letters. If there is the barrel would have been made in 1921 or later. The role marks on the barrel that Rem141 asked about are also important. So if you can find a 32Rem cartridge you should beable to tell what caliber the rifle is. Let us know what you find.

Loren RSA
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m0ondoggy
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Post by m0ondoggy »

The barrel patent ends with 1910. Between the magazine and the barrel just in front of the receiver the barrel is marked:

Y
52


Thanks guys.
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rem141
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Post by rem141 »

Moondoggy, The 1910 patent dated barrel would be from the same period as the receiver, both used on the first year of production guns. The ammo indicator looks like the third type which dates to approx. 1915 - 1920, so it was replaced sometime after 1915. You were given several suggestions how to find the caliber of the barrel, so until you tell us differently we will assume it is a 30 cal and that ammo indicator was replaced with wrong cal marking. The ammo indicators were available as a replacement part during the time the Model 14 was produced, but in later years they were almost impossible to find so the owner probably took whatever he could find to plug the empty hole. They were know to occasionally drop out and become lost.
Loren and I have discussed the marking you found on the barrel, Y52. We would like to see a clear picture of the marks to determine location, relationship and placement. The mark appears to be only part of a date code or repair code, or could it be inspection or assemblers marks. The "J" that is visible from your pictures is a normal mark used prior to date coding.
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m0ondoggy
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Post by m0ondoggy »

rem141 wrote:Moondoggy, The 1910 patent dated barrel would be from the same period as the receiver, both used on the first year of production guns. The ammo indicator looks like the third type which dates to approx. 1915 - 1920, so it was replaced sometime after 1915. You were given several suggestions how to find the caliber of the barrel, so until you tell us differently we will assume it is a 30 cal and that ammo indicator was replaced with wrong cal marking. The ammo indicators were available as a replacement part during the time the Model 14 was produced, but in later years they were almost impossible to find so the owner probably took whatever he could find to plug the empty hole. They were know to occasionally drop out and become lost.
Loren and I have discussed the marking you found on the barrel, Y52. We would like to see a clear picture of the marks to determine location, relationship and placement. The mark appears to be only part of a date code or repair code, or could it be inspection or assemblers marks. The "J" that is visible from your pictures is a normal mark used prior to date coding.
I'll try to get a better picture of it tonight. Thanks
If it goes bang, I like it.
agr1pooh
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Re: Model 14, is it a .30 or a .32? When was it made?

Post by agr1pooh »

I know this post is several years old but if you decided that you rifle is a 30 cal not 32 would you want to sell the brass plug that says 32 cal, I need one for my 32
Robert R.
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