Model 30 Express 25 Rem

[Rickster]

Any experience here in loading the 25 Rem for a Model 30?

[Tbury]

I have been looking for one myself.

I have been loading .25 Rem for 40+ yrs. I have a Model 14, Model 8 and a Stevens Model 425 all in .25 Rem; I load mostly 117gr jacked soft points and 111 gr cast with gas check. I find IMR 3031 to be my best powder I recently tried Varget but did not like the group size or painfully hot brass coming out of the gun. You can use .25-35 WCF data for .25 Rem, Hodgdon's web sight has a pretty good listing for 25-35, //data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp.

With the model 30 you can use pointed bullets but I would not try to hot rod this caliber. My best groups are below max velocity.

[Rickster]

Great to hear from one who has been loading the 25 Rem for so long. I am also a big fan of the old Rem pump guns. I have several, but alas, none in 25 Rem.

I recently picked up a Mo 30 in 25 Rem, and have brass and dies on order. I have been looking at 25-35 data and thinking it is a bit mild for the Mo 30. And I see no reason the case shouldnt be able to take modern pressures. As usual, I plan to test the upper end on this one, if for no other reason than to see what it will (safely) do. In general though, I prefer moderate loads, long ago realizing that a few extra feet per second isnt worth the wear and tear. Especially when the brass is hard to come by. (But then, I have only been handloading for 25 years)

Your comment on Varget is interesting. I have tried it for other calibers, and been impressed with the consistent velocities it provides. But it has never given optimum accuracy, so I have yet to burn a full pound of it.

I keep going back to the old IMR series for my working loads. The Powley Computer is recommending 3031 for 100gr and 4895 for 117. But experience trumps theory. And the PC is based on higher pressure loads than are standard for the 25 Rem/25-35. I can imagine that a slightly reduced load of 3031 would make an efficient moderate pressure load.

The twist in my rifle is approximately one in 12. Is that about what you are seeing in your other 25 Rems?

[Tbury]

I have not tried 4895 but it is one of the recommended powders for this caliber. As far as twist goes my Stevens has a 1 in 7 similar to Winchesters in 25-35 my 14 and 8 have a 1 in 10 twist which was the remington standard for this caliber. Your 30 may have it also. I do not see why a bolt action 25 rem could not give better velocity and ballistics with spitzer bullets. The bullet shape may reduce the powder volume but experiment away.

I have also used 2400 for cast bullets but for now I am staying with 3031. Once I have found the best loads for my 14 and 8 (new acquisitions this past year) I may experiment with other powders. I have an old Ideal hand book from the early 50s that lists loads for 25-35/25 rem. the max load for 3031 and 4895 only differ by 50fpsfor 117gr bullets. It lists 2350 and 2300 fps respectively for these powders. If you want specifics PM me.

I find varget to be very accurate in my .223 and 250 savage but my 25 rem does not seem to like it and as I say the brass comes out of the chamber hot enough to bury your arm. I have a 30 express in .30 rem but am still working up loads for it.

Reedsammo.com has the best prices I have found for 30 and 32 Rem brass and loaded ammo. The 30 rem brass is remington headstamp. The only .25 brass he has right now is resized 30 rem. Stay away from Jamison brass. I have two batches that are over size in the extractor groove. They will not fit in two different brands of shell holder. I modified an old lyman shell holder to resize and load this brass and it jammed in both my model 14 and my model 8. The only I can see to fix them is to cut the groove deeper and that would be tedious without a lath and the correct cutter.

[Rickster]

I could believe 10". My estimate was done with a cleaning swab. Not very precise. Thanks for the info.

Aw nutz. I should have asked sooner, because Jamison brass is what I have coming from Buffalo arms. I could have gotten reformed 30 Rem, but wanted the 25 Rem headstamp. I do have a lathe, so I can save them if they wont work through the 30. Here is hoping it is more tolerant. I know the Remington pumps are particular about head.

I know what you mean about the small differences in velocity between IMR 3031 and 4895. http://www.imrpowder.com/pdf/IMR_rifle.pdf shows how similar they are (for everything except 25 Rem/25-35, of course). I run 3031 for 150gr loads in the 30 Rem and 30-30. I cant remember what I loaded in my 250, as it is mainly a safe queen. I am definitely interested in the old Ideal reloading data. I'll send you a PM.

[Tbury]

It is possible that the buffalo arms brass is from a different batch. It is easy to check if the head fits in an RCBS #19 shell holder. If it fits you are in if it is too thick, its a problem. The rounds will single load ok but my 14 jammed with the shell stuck under the bolt. A model 30 might be more forgiving but I would check them all and if they do not fit see if buffalo will take them back.

Reeds charges less than $18 for 20 loaded .30 rem shells.

One of the guys on the Great 8 forum has been in contact with Jamison to see if they will do anything with the brass to make them right but I have not heard of an answer yet. Buffalo should stand behind their product. Cycle them through the magazine to see if they cause feeding problems or ejection problems. If so tell them that the extractor groove is not cut deep enough to feed properly.

[Rickster]

My 25 Rem reloading components arrived last week, and I had a chance to do some experimenting this weekend. There looks to be a shortage of information on this rifle/cartridge combination, so I thought I would take the time to pass on a few of my notes.

I bought 100 cases of Jamison brass and a set of Hornady dies from Buffalo arms. A guy from BA called to let me know that the order would be delayed a few weeks because they didn’t have the dies in stock (even though listed on their website). While on the phone I asked him about the brass. He said BA has two types. The Jamison brass is the one with JAM in the part number. The other is neck sized from Remington manufactured 30 Rem brass. He didn’t mention any problems with the Jam brass, and at that time I didn’t know to ask. But, as it turns out, the brass does indeed have the problem described by tbury in an earlier post. That is, the extractor groove isn’t cut deep enough. The BA listed price for the Jam brass was $34, but they billed me $50. I wont be doing business with BA again.

The extractor hook bears on the bottom of the extractor groove. This causes two problems. First, it causes the extractor to be held outward slightly away from the bolt. This could be a problem if a case sticks in the chamber. The Mo. 30 extractor is retained by a groove cut near the bolt face. A tooth on the extractor fits in this groove. With the case holding the extractor out, the tooth isn’t fully seated in the groove. I suspect that if a case were to require a lot of extraction force, the tooth might jump out of the groove. But I haven’t had that problem yet. Second, the extractor pushes the case against the opposite side of the chamber, slightly canting the case out of alignment with the bore axis. This is not conducive to good accuracy. I checked my 30 rem brass. It doesn’t have the same problem. After my preliminary testing, I will switch to resized 30 Rem brass. I might turn down the extractor grooves in the Jam brass, if I get time.

The new brass had about 60 thousands of headspace to my rifle chamber. That is quite a lot (nearly 1/16 of an inch). So I limited the first loads to moderate pressures to fire form the cases to the chamber.

25 Rem and 25-35 reloading data are supposedly interchangeable, according to the manuals. Additional 25-35 data is readily available, thanks to the guys on the lever action boards. But I discovered that the Jam brass holds more powder than the 25-35. A standard 25-35 load in this brass leaves about 10 grains of free space. Loads for the 25-35 are typically in the vicinity of 27 grains, with 30 to 32 grains being a compressed load. But the 25 Rem Jam brass will hold 36 to 37 grains when filled to the bottom of the neck (even before fireforming). I have yet to check the capacity of necked down 30 Rem brass, but I suspect it will be similar since 30 Rem also holds about 36 gr to the neck.

My reload testing results are still preliminary, but I will say that in order to fill the case without creating excess pressure, I found that slower powder, such as 4350, worked better than the powders recommended for the 25-35. Top loads came close to those for the 250 Savage. 3000fps with 75 and 87 grain bullets was obtainable. I had to stop my testing there though. I was using bulk Remington 86 grain 25-20 bullets for some of my testing (to save money). I found that upon reaching 3000fps, the 25-20 bullets break up. I discovered this when I found that my chronograph LCD readout doesn’t work after being hit by a bullet fragment.

The chamber appears to be throated for round nose bullets, but I had no trouble reaching the lands with 75gr pointed bullets. I found that Hornady 75 and 87gr pointed bullets seated to an OAL of 2.60 inch placed the bullet near the lands. The Mo. 30 magazine length, being capable of holding a 30-06, does not limit the use of long pointed bullets (such as ballistic tips), seated as far out as necessary. And the extra magazine space didn’t cause any feeding problems.

The rifle appears to have been sighted for factory loads (tame), and shot 6 to 12 inches high with high speed 75 and 87 gr bullets. The peep sight was already bottomed out, so I could not adjust for the 75gr and 87gr loads. I had planned to set this rifle up for 75gr and 87gr pointed bullets at or near top velocities, since I already have plenty of deer rifles. I don’t want to drill and tap the receiver or change the front sight of this fine old gentleman, so I think I will relieve the underside of the peep sight where it contacts the receiver. I probably wont be able to get the peep down enough for 75gr bullets, so I will probably do the best I can and then develop a 87 or 100gr load that matches.

Under the circumstances, I didn’t waste a lot of time doing accuracy tests. The shots I did put on paper indicate that 3MOA was the norm for the 25-35 loads. Heavier loads, that filled the case, yielded groups in the 1-2 MOA range, which is as good as I can shoot with iron sights.

[Noel]

Hey Rickster,
Check out load data. com for some higher end 25 loads, they have a couple close to the 250 Savage which really isn't too much to expect in a bolt gun. The case capacity is suprisingly close.

FWIW I found the H380 to work very well in both my 8 and M14.

[Tbury]

Rickster, the case capacity in the Remington calibers is greater than the similar Win. calibers because the walls are straighter and shoulders have a sharper angle. With a bolt action this should allow better ballistics. I found many years ago that 25-20 bullets can not stand up to 25 rem velocities. In my Stevens 425 I tried 87 gr half jackets, the 1 in 7 twist spun the jackets off the bullets. My targets had perfect round hole with a rip beside them where the jacket hit. I do not remember the velocities but they were nowhere near 3000 fps.

[Rickster]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Here is my next installment.

I gave up on the Jamison cases when 2 separated during resizing, after only 2 firings. I have reloaded tens of thousands of rounds over the years, and this is the first time I have had this problem. So I chucked the Jamison cases and necked down some 30 Remington cases instead. The Rems are on their 6th firing with no problems so far.
Once the cases have been fully fireformed, and full length resized in Hornady dies, the headspace to the Mo. 30 chamber is 5 thousands, which is just about right. Case capacity on these cases is 44 grains of water, which is 1 or 2 grains less than the 250-3000 (note, I got the 250-3000 case volume figure off the internet and have not double checked it).

And, as luck would have it, I recently picked up a Ruger No. 3 that had been rebarreled to 25 Rem (of all things). It is a heavy barrel and well suited to accuracy testing. So, to keep wear and tear off the Mo. 30, and allow the use of a scope for accuracy testing, most testing has shifted to the Ruger, and then occasionally checked with the Remington.
The Ruger chamber is tighter than the Remington. The chamber neck diameter on the Remington is 4 thousands larger (looser) than the Ruger. The Ruger has no headspace. As noted above, the Remington has 5 thousands headspace. For a given powder load, the Ruger generally developed higher pressures, and correspondingly higher velocities (100 to 200fps) than the Remington. As a result, any load developed for the Ruger was safe in the Remington. My plan is to work up near maximum loads for the Ruger and then use the same loads in either rifle. This means that the Remington will be running a little underpowered. For example, the best load tested used H4895 to develop 3050fps with 87gr bullets. The same load in the Rem gave 2850fps.

My goal has been to work up loads that reach 100% loading density at the same time that pressure becomes limiting. Since I don’t have a pressure barrel, I relied on velocities, primer appearance and case head expansion to tell me if I had gone too far. Based on initial test runs, and the Powley computer, my velocity goals were: 75gr- 3200fps, 87gr - 3000fps, 100gr - 2800fps, 120gr - 2500fps. For the purposes of finding the max, I tested to 100fps beyond those goals, provided that I wasn’t already getting signs of excessive pressure. I have ruined 3 cases so far (loose primer pockets).

I have intentionally not reported loads in terms of powder weight (grains). I am not trying to provide a reloading manual for public consumption. I am merely trying to give an idea of which powder worked best for me.

I tried IMR3031, IMR4046, IMR4320, IMR4350; H4198, H4895, H322, H380, HBLC-2, H335, Varget, RL7, RL10X RL15; AA2230 and AA2520 for use with 75gr, 87gr, 100gr and 120gr pointed Hornady bullets. Below is a list summarizing my notes so far.

3031 is the best powder tested for the 75gr. 100% load density, or slightly compressed, gives 3200fps and excellent accuracy.

H4895 is the best powder tested for the 87gr bullet. 95% load density gives 3000fps and the best accuracy of any load with any powder. This was a late discovery. I still need to try H4895 with 75gr bullets. It is probably too fast for 100gr bullets.

10X also works well with 75gr bullets. It is slightly more dense than 3031, and can be loaded to higher velocities and pressure. Would be good for hunting loads where power is more important than case life. Meters better than 3031.

IMR 4064 is the best powder tested for the 100gr bullet. 100% load density, or slightly compressed, gives 2800fps and excellent accuracy.

RL 15 also works well with 100gr bullets. It is slightly more dense than 4064, and can be loaded to higher velocities and pressure. Would be good for hunting loads where power is more important than case life. Meters better than 4064.

IMR 4320 was mediocre on all counts. I have yet to find a cartridge that really likes 4320. That is why I am still trying to burn the original 2 lbs of it I bought 15 years ago. Maybe it is just me.

Varget was not outstanding with any bullet in initial testing.

Ball powders H380, AA 2520, BLC-2 and H335 heated the barrel quickly, very quickly. Testing found loads that were workable, but I quickly decided to stop using them for the MO 30. The old barrel alloys did not use as much chromium as do newer alloys. This makes the older barrels more prone to erosion. There are so few of these Mo 30 25 Rem barrels remaining, it only seems right to be gentle with it.

4350 seems well suited to the 120gr bullet, but my testing was limited.

AA 2230, H322, H4198 and RL7 are too fast for any bullet (OK maybe not the 60gr, but I didnt try those.) These are the powders that wasted 3 cases.

[Noel]

Great post and update!
Did you try the 117gr Hornady and come to a conclusion with that one?

I have hardly shot my model 14 Rem and certainly never enough to get the barrel hot. I had not thought of the problem of a particular powder being more of an eroder than another, good call to treat your barrel to a long life. I have a pound and a half of the stuff to use, perhaps in a wore out Lee Enfield instead.

Good to hear someone else came up with similar numbers as I did for the 25 Rem in a bolt gun. Suprising how close it is to a 250 Savage. Because of the more dosile loads for the model 8 this cartridge never got a fair shake IMO.

[Tbury]

Hi Rickster and Noel, Pac-Nor barrels advertise that they can make barrels for the model 30 in .25 Remington. I bet they can make them for the Ruger as well.

[Rickster]

Hey Noel, I guess I missed something. Do you also have a Mo 30 or is your 25 Rem in a different bolt gun? I am thinking it would be sweet in a Sako medium action (if you have easy money) or in the Savage 340 (if you are frugal).

Regarding barrel heating. My Mo 30 has a lightweight barrel, tapering quickly and thin at the muzzle. 2 shots of ball powder and the barrel is too hot to touch. But with the IMR powders, as long as I kept my shooting slow (load one, shoot one, load another, shoot another) I could shoot almost indefinitely without it overheating.

You bring up something I have been curious about. I have been wondering which rifle is responsible for keeping the pressures down on the Rem cartridge series. I guessed the Mo 8, because the 14 seems as strong as any lever gun. But then, I havent had the chance to examine the workings of a Mo 8.

Yeah, you know it is a shame that the 25 Rem didn’t survive as a general purpose cartridge. It is such a nicely balanced cartridge. And looks modern too. Things would have been a whole lot different (and better) for all, if they had chosen the 25 Rem for the M16 instead of the 223. sigh

[Noel]

Hey Noel, I guess I missed something. Do you also have a Mo 30 or is your 25 Rem in a different bolt gun? I am thinking it would be sweet in a Sako medium action (if you have easy money) or in the Savage 340 (if you are frugal).

I have been called frugal before. I picked a a nice little 14 (1913 DOM) for a birthday gift to myself back in January. Had two others before that but they just weren't in the condition I wanted.
In a moment of weakness I bought a "25-35 Rem" or 25Rem Model 8 from 1908, not two months later.


I also have a Savage Super Sporter in 250-3000. This one from 1928.

All three were bought for a strange little collection I am working on geared around my families homesteading guns as well as the close family friends of the day. I have been sitting down with a Gent who will turn 88 this year. He grew up wioth my Gramma and is one of those kind of guys who is a Grampa to all. His dad is the one with the 14 in the moose hunting pic below.
This fellow grew up using his Dad's Model 8 in 25 Rem and they shot a pile of game with it.

Regarding barrel heating. My Mo 30 has a lightweight barrel, tapering quickly and thin at the muzzle. 2 shots of ball powder and the barrel is too hot to touch. But with the IMR powders, as long as I kept my shooting slow (load one, shoot one, load another, shoot another) I could shoot almost indefinitely without it overheating.

The 14 I shoot the same way as you and have not had the barrel get more than warm. I rarely rattle through rounds very fast in an effort to enjoy it as much as possible. I don't get to shoot like when I was young and single.

You bring up something I have been curious about. I have been wondering which rifle is responsible for keeping the pressures down on the Rem cartridge series. I guessed the Mo 8, because the 14 seems as strong as any lever gun. But then, I havent had the chance to examine the workings of a Mo 8.

My expertise comes to a grinding halt here. Up until last June I knew my Gramma's brother used a 14 but not what caliber. I had only handled one in 30Rem at a gunshow once. They seem strong enough and must be as they handled any cartridge the lever guns did except for the big stuff like 45-70 to 50-110. In reloading for my BIL's Browning Bar it seems a very strict rule to stay within load manual guidelines or pressures spike in a big hurry.

For me, I am only trying to duplicate the factory loads they would have used 80 years ago. I will shoot a couple deer with these guns but more likely the coyotes and such will be haunted by the guns so no need to push the limits. I have other rifles for that kind of horseplay.

The model 8 seems to be a little finicky. I tried loading some 85gr Ballistic tips but had no data with H380. I went on the conservative side and they would not cycle the action. The 117gr load I used in the 14's was 2340 IIRC which is right around factory spec. Even a couple of them did not cycle so perhaps I need to go to a slower powder, not sure.....

Yeah, you know it is a shame that the 25 Rem didn’t survive as a general purpose cartridge. It is such a nicely balanced cartridge. And looks modern too. Things would have been a whole lot different (and better) for all, if they had chosen the 25 Rem for the M16 instead of the 223. sigh

That is exactly what I thought when we found a couple old spent cases in the field last June, almost like a minature 06 case. Here are some of the ones we picked up and my Uncle and the neighbors using 25 Rems a way back when......







And since you mention 250 Savage, well here is my Gramma's brother putting his to work in 1932.




tbury and I were in a race trying to see who can get the most 25s this year but I think it wise to let him win, he has more $$$ to play with than I do.

I did find a 25 pump in a paper ad over the weekend......perhaps a 25-20???????

Sorry for the run away here, hope you don't mind the pics. I'm sure tbury knew it was only a matter of time before I let loose. lol

[Rickster]

I enjoyed that a lot, Noel. Those are some real interesting pictures. You are lucky to have them. Oh, yeah, the rifles and the backdrop are nice too.

I hope it is OK to say on a Remington board, but I would like to have a 250 Super Sporter. I have Sporters in 25-20 and 32-20. They are sweet shooters.

How'd that newspaper add turn out? Mo 25s are my favorite carry gun by far. Cant get enough of those.