Model 14, .30 Rem Cartridge with pointed bullet OK???

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dawgpile

Model 14, .30 Rem Cartridge with pointed bullet OK???

Post by dawgpile »

Is it OK to use pointed bullet cartridges in this rifle? I was told something about the magazine being fluted specifically to allow this and that no safety issue existed.

I loaded up some round nose ones and they don't feed properly. A gun smith said use pointed bullets. Since it's a safety issue, I want to be sure.

Supposedly, this is one of the few slide action rifles that were designed specifically to be able to use pointed bullets.

Is this true? (Being wrong on this one will definitely 'leave a mark'!)

Thanks in advance for your response.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Good question! The people you are talking with are right, the Model 14 was made to shoot pointed bullets. That is one of Pederson's patents. In doing research on this model I obtained a copy of a hangtag. This tag came from the factory with the gun. On the back, this statement was printed; "Ammunition with pointed bullets should not be used in this rifle, except when loaded by hand into the chamber." This being the case, why take a chance of causing injury. By the way, if you didn't, make certain your seating depth with the round nose bullets is correct. Safety first. I am certain some people will disagree with me but it appears the factory did not agree with the inventer at some point in the rifles history.[/b][/u]
dawgpile

Thanks for your insight

Post by dawgpile »

I appreciate your response. I find it interesting that Rem would sell a gun that supposedly is designed to take pointed ammo and yet put a hang tag that states not to use it. I suppose it's possible they may have had some problems and decided for liability reasons to put in that disclaimer.

I have asked Rem directly for a response/recommendation and haven't heard back yet. I'll share that if and when I get one.

Based on some other digging I've done, it appears that some folks do have a similar problem with cartridge feeding of round nose ammo in the Model 14. Indeed they have experimented with OAL as well.

I double checked my OAL and I'm under the spec. Interestingly enough, I have some factory Rem ammo using a 170gr round nose(same weight as my Hornady) but the OAL is about 2mm less. Clearly, the height of the Hornady bullet above the cannelure is the difference. The factory Rem ammo does feed with less problems.
Guest

Post by Guest »

The model 14 was first produced in 1912. It was last produced in 1935. The magazine design hasn't been used since the 141. The bullets you are using weren't around in 1912. I'm not certain but I think the Hornady bullet has a secant ogive. This design wasn't used untill recent years. It seems to me that you are trying to fit todays standards with the past. I would expect a mixed result by anyone mixing the new with the old. As far as Remington and safety, they were involved with the forming of SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactures' Institute) from the beginning. The fact is that you can test only so much prior to production. Many times problems only show themselves after production. We have come to expect much from todays arms makers. The testing of new products has come along way from 1912. Now I don't know for certain but I doubt Remington has an employee around that worked on the 14. As far as that goes, the 141 went out of production around 1950 (55 years ago)! Remington might have a hard time answering your question. They might even turn to the Remington Society for help. One last thought, is it possible that your feeding mechanism is worn? Happy shooting.
Guest

Post by Guest »

The model 14 was first produced in 1912. It was last produced in 1935. The magazine design hasn't been used since the 141. The bullets you are using weren't around in 1912. I'm not certain but I think the Hornady bullet has a secant ogive. This design wasn't used untill recent years. It seems to me that you are trying to fit todays standards with the past. I would expect a mixed result by anyone mixing the new with the old. As far as Remington and safety, they were involved with the forming of SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactures' Institute) from the beginning. The fact is that you can test only so much prior to production. Many times problems only show themselves after production. We have come to expect much from todays arms makers. The testing of new products has come along way from 1912. Now I don't know for certain but I doubt Remington has an employee around that worked on the 14. As far as that goes, the 141 went out of production around 1950 (55 years ago)! Remington might have a hard time answering your question. They might even turn to the Remington Society for help. One last thought, is it possible that your feeding mechanism is worn? Happy shooting.
dawgpile

Post by dawgpile »

Thanks for the info on the 14. BTW, I wasn't trying to find fault with Remington. I've managed product development businesses within my company and am well aware of the need to handle issues throughout the life-cycle of the product. No response yet from Rem on my question to them and as you say, they may not even be capable of answering it, given the age of the firearm.

Regarding the Hornady bullets, the flat and round nose versions do not resemble secant ogive designs, although their pointed ones do. (I realize that if you go to the Hornady website and look at their 30 cal bullet lineup, all of them are claimed to be secant ogives but I believe the round and flat nose versions are not) They sure look like tangent ogives to me. Interestingly enough, the original Rem factory ammo bullet resembles the secant ogive, but I don't know that for a fact. Just an eyeball.....

The gunsmith indicated the feed mechanics are in good order so I believe my most prudent course of action is to investigate the available round/flat nose cannelured bullet choices in both 150 and 170 gr and select one which gives me the lowest OAL below the 2.525 spec. Case trimming down to the 2.040 spec will also be in order. I suspect a round nose will feed even better than its flat sibling :)
Guest

Post by Guest »

Anyone who has gone to all the trouble you have to shoot a model 14 is number one ok in my book. I went to see Ken Blauch, model 14 expert and researcher, to get a copy of the Remington Field Service Manual. In the problem section are three types of feeding problems listed. The one that caught my eye was the "feeding into chamber fails." There are two causes and two corrections listed. The first caues is the extractor fouled with dirt or has a weak spring. The remedy for this problem is to clean the extractor or fit a new spring. No big surprise there. The second cause listed is the carrier dog is shot and does not raise the carrier to the proper height. The remedy is to fit a longer carrier dog. This could be a problem. I know that this might not be your problem at all but thought the information would not hunrt anything. By the way, if you know where there is a 44-40 carbine let me know.
dawgpile

Response received from Remington

Post by dawgpile »

I received a brief response to my email from Remington. It indicated they did not recommend using pointed bullets.

They did not respond to the question about the rifle's design.

My takeaway is that I'll experiment some more with 150 gr RN bullets, trim the cases down and crimp the bullets at the very top of the cannelure, all in an attempt to minimize OAL. Interestingly enough the NOS ammo I've got has a case length that averages .015 less than the trim spec!

Thanks for all the insight shared in this thread :!:
dave

14 and round nose

Post by dave »

My Father collects 14's, 14 1/2's and oringinal ammo. You post got me curious so I checked some original Reminton ammo and found silver tip type bullets that more resembled a half jacket round nose with a flat tip. Just thought you might like to know.

Dave
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