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Model 12 - CS? 
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 7
Post Model 12 - CS?
Hi, my grandfather gave me a Model 12 when I was a kid, I think it's a Model 12CS based upon other info I have found on this board. SN on both the receiver and the trigger assembly (visible only after takedown) matches, and is 248XXX . Caliber is .22 Remington Special, it has an octagon barrel and a curved buttplate, brass loader tube, simple screw and stamped metal rear sight. Apparently too early for date code on the barrel. On the left side of the barrel on one of the lower surfaces, there is a D over a bar over what looks like an L. On the top are the typical patent dates.

I have seen dates of manufacture given on the forum, but could not find a resource for figuring out date of manufacture on my own. If anyone can tell me when this was manufactured, that would be nice to know. I am guessing 1914 based upon some other SN's I have seen? If that is the case, would that make this an early 12C?

Also, when I was a kid we got some .22 WRM and tried to fire the rifle... the action would cycle no problem but no rounds would fire. Upon takedown, it appears as though the firing pin is functional, and I can operate the hammer with no problems. If someone can point me in the right direction to start looking for the issue, I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!


Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:38 am
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:04 pm
Posts: 514
Location: N.W. Wyoming
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
gr8scott_o wrote:
Hi, my grandfather gave me a Model 12 when I was a kid, I think it's a Model 12CS based upon other info I have found on this board. SN on both the receiver and the trigger assembly (visible only after takedown) matches, and is 248XXX . Caliber is .22 Remington Special, it has an octagon barrel and a curved buttplate, brass loader tube, simple screw and stamped metal rear sight. Apparently too early for date code on the barrel. On the left side of the barrel on one of the lower surfaces, there is a D over a bar over what looks like an L. On the top are the typical patent dates.

I have seen dates of manufacture given on the forum, but could not find a resource for figuring out date of manufacture on my own. If anyone can tell me when this was manufactured, that would be nice to know. I am guessing 1914 based upon some other SN's I have seen? If that is the case, would that make this an early 12C?

Also, when I was a kid we got some .22 WRM and tried to fire the rifle... the action would cycle no problem but no rounds would fire. Upon takedown, it appears as though the firing pin is functional, and I can operate the hammer with no problems. If someone can point me in the right direction to start looking for the issue, I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!


I can't help you on the date issue, but you need to do some reading on the .22 Remington Special. You cannot fire the more common (newer) .22 WMR rounds in guns chambered for the .22 WRF (.22 Special). You MIGHT be able to locate some ammo for it, but I'm sure it's going to be very expensive if you do. Basically, you have a "wall hanger".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Rimfire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winche ... um_Rimfire


Den


Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:57 am
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
Ah, yes, good stuff, thanks Den. My young mind must have confused .22wmr with .22wrf. Man, how did we all survive without wiki back inn the day?

Well, that is a bit of a relief. The rifle probably does function fine then. It would have been very unlike my grandfather to have a non-functional firearm around. He was a bit of a gun nut and it would have been repaired at all costs if there was an issue with it.

If anyone can assist with the date then, that would answer my final question on it. My dreams of firing the gun since I was a youth will have to remain a dream unless someone has a source for .22wrf or .22 Remington Special they could point me to.

Thanks

EDIT: Turns out Cabela's stocks some of the newer CCI stuff... expensive at $57+ for 250 rounds, but cheap for fulfilling a dream I suppose. Here


Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:18 am
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Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:19 am
Posts: 157
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
From REMINGTON .22 rim Fire Rifles by John Gyde and Roy Marcot, serial number information...

Model 12 serial number range for 1914 is 248344 - 294526

Hope this helps.

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Particular interest is in Revolving rifles, Cane rifles, hand guns, and all Remington knives. Conducting survey on revolving rifles, please request survey form.


Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:54 pm
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
Wow, good info, thanks. I will look into that book.

So, did the Model 12 C really start in 1914? Now I can't find the post where that was stated. I am interested because my serial number is in the 2483XX range, making it VERY early 1914.


Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:39 pm
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:05 am
Posts: 8
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
I had a 12CS a few years ago and it would fire both .22 Remington Special and .22 WRF with no problem. The only problem I am aware of is you can't fire .22 Remington Auto [for the Model 16 Remington] in a Winchester Model 03 auto, but you can fire the shorter .22 Winchester auto shell in a Model 16 Remington, it just won't feed properly. Lee.


Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:37 am
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:52 pm
Posts: 805
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
[quote="lee r moege"]I had a 12CS a few years ago and it would fire both .22 Remington Special and .22 WRF with no problem. The only problem I am aware of is you can't fire .22 Remington Auto [for the Model 16 Remington] in a Winchester Model 03 auto, but you can fire the shorter .22 Winchester auto shell in a Model 16 Remington, it just won't feed properly. Lee.[/quote]

The 22 Rem Spec and WRF are identical. The 22 Mag is a very different animal.

22 Win Auto ammo SHOULD NOT be fired in a Rem M/16. Probable headspace issues??? Also the Win cartridge is over 100 fps faster than the Rem.


Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:09 pm
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Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:19 am
Posts: 157
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
Additional info from Remington .22 Rim Fire Rifles by John Gyde and Roy Marcot.

Introduction of the Model 12, Grade C (No. 3) was in 1910.

Introduced in 1909, the first shipments of the Model 12 began in September of that year, and were limited to two grades, the No. 1 and No. 2

In 1910, the full spectrum of grades were offered.

Catalog prices were as follows in 1910:
No. 1 Standard Grade ............... $12.65
No. 2 Gallery Special ................ $16.00
No. 3 Target Grade ................... $16.00
No. 4 Peerless Grade ................ $45.00
No. 5 Expert Grade ................... $60.00
No. 6 Premier Grade ................. $75.00
The 1910 Remington catalog also offered a number of
extras, including:
a) Imported Walnut stock and forearm on the No.2 and No.3 for $15.00.
b) Checkered stock on No.1, No.2 and No.3 rifles for $2.50.
c) A half pistol grip stock on No.3 rifle for $1.50.
d) Nickel plating on the receiver, butt plate and trigger guard for $3.50.
e) An extended magazine was offered as an option for the No. 2 Gallery Model, which held 25
.22 Short cartridges. This option was easily identified because the magazine tube extended to
½-inch of the muzzle.

_________________
Particular interest is in Revolving rifles, Cane rifles, hand guns, and all Remington knives. Conducting survey on revolving rifles, please request survey form.


Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:59 pm
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
Thanks Mike. So, I did find the post I was thinking of here in this forum, I re-read and the poster mentioned that the Rem Special started in 1914. Does your magic book have anything to say about that? There also appear to be some conflicting accounts of when serial numbers started for 1914.

I did look into purchasing the book, but amazon has them for $90, not sure if I want to drop that kind of coin for a book on this at the moment.

BTW, the jump in price for the Grade 3 to the Grade 4 is huge, especially in 1910 dollars. What set them apart?


Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:00 pm
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:52 pm
Posts: 805
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
[quote="gr8scott_o"]Thanks Mike. So, I did find the post I was thinking of here in this forum, I re-read and the poster mentioned that the Rem Special started in 1914. Does your magic book have anything to say about that? There also appear to be some conflicting accounts of when serial numbers started for 1914.

I did look into purchasing the book, but amazon has them for $90, not sure if I want to drop that kind of coin for a book on this at the moment.

BTW, the jump in price for the Grade 3 to the Grade 4 is huge, especially in 1910 dollars. What set them apart?[/quote]
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The book ain't magic.... Roy & I did the best we could from factory records that were sometimes conflicting. That's the fun of collecting or writing about Remingtons... Our research showed that the Rem Spec M/12 was first offered in 1914. According to most factory records 56,183 is the starting serial # for 1914. The Grade three was just a 12-C or 12-CS. The Grade IV had upgrade wood and some engraving. The quality of wood and the detail of engraving changed significantly with grades 5 & 6.

Photos and more info on the M/12 (23 pages) are in the book. Buy yourself an early Christmas or birthday present before they're all gone??? Just an easy call to Amazon...


Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:03 pm
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:52 pm
Posts: 805
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
Also... .. You can get a preview of several pages at our Website Remington Armory Press.com


Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:32 pm
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
Looks like a really nice book, I didn't realize the authors were not only on this board but had responded to my post above. Thanks John. The book will definitely make my Christmas List.

I am confused by your statement "According to most factory records 56,183 is the starting serial # for 1914" because earlier in the thread Mike quoted your book as saying that serial numbers started at 248344 for 1914 for the Model 12s. Any chance you could clarify that for me?


Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:58 am
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:52 pm
Posts: 805
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
[quote="gr8scott_o"]Looks like a really nice book, I didn't realize the authors were not only on this board but had responded to my post above. Thanks John. The book will definitely make my Christmas List.

I am confused by your statement "According to most factory records 56,183 is the starting serial # for 1914" because earlier in the thread Mike quoted your book as saying that serial numbers started at 248344 for 1914 for the Model 12s. Any chance you could clarify that for me?[/quote]
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sure I can. We were both wrong, but he was closer than I was. 56,183 is the NUMBER of M/12s produced in 1914, not the starting serial #. I looked at the wrong column..... But, the serial # s for 1914 started at 238,344 (not 248,344) and ended at 294,526. Sorry for the confusion. I try to get these numbers and figures right, but this one slipped by me.


Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:16 pm
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
John Gyde wrote:
Sure I can. We were both wrong, but he was closer than I was. 56,183 is the NUMBER of M/12s produced in 1914, not the starting serial #. I looked at the wrong column..... But, the serial # s for 1914 started at 238,344 (not 248,344) and ended at 294,526. Sorry for the confusion. I try to get these numbers and figures right, but this one slipped by me.


Ah, that makes a LOT more sense, and means some of the other posts I was reading make sense as well. Thanks for the clarification!


Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:20 pm
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: Model 12 - CS?
Well, ammo came in from Cabelas, and I was able to take it out and shoot it this weekend on a camping trip... Dream fulfilled! It shot well but I will need to take it to the range to do some sight-in from a bench, was shooting about 2" low from 50 yards.

I also snapped a couple of pics last week:

Image

Image

Image

I did have three Fail To Fires, and when I looked at the cartridge the firing pin indent was not real strong. After thinking about how I was holding it, it occurred to me that I was applying too much rearward pressure to the front stock, perhaps pushing the bolt rearward just a hair, causing the light strikes. I corrected my hold and had no further issues, even cycling back in the FTF rounds with no problems. However, if anyone has advice on adjustments that could be made, I would be all ears.


Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:54 pm
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