16 ga. Mod 11 Question

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Gamemaster32
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16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Gamemaster32 »

After considerable research to absolutely no avail, I now move to respectfully submit my inquiry to the members of the Forum:

On the left is a circa '39 12 ga. Model 11 Sportsman; on the right, a circa '38 16 ga. Model 11. Note the stainless "Forend Guide Ring" on the 12 ga.
Image

As with the 12 ga., is the 16 ga. (on the right) supposed to have a Forend Guide Ring? If so, would a 16 ga. be a different size? If so, can anyone provide me with the dimensions of a 16 ga. Forend Guide Ring?
Image

All the resources & photos I've located have provided/shown me conflicting information. :?:

TIA
Researcher
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Researcher »

Not being of a mechanical bent I'd never notice such a thing, but I went to the man cave and began removing forearms. My 1941 vintage 12-gauge, my 1938 vintage 16-gauge and my 1948 vintage 20-gauge all have such a ring.
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Gamemaster32
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Gamemaster32 »

Researcher:

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I've had only a limited number of 11s in my hands. Most have been 12 ga.; some have had the forend guide ring, & some haven't. As stated, I've search photos, forums, parts listings, etc. without a difinitive answer, but assumed this 16 shoud have the ring after having spring tension issues (a rather long story).

Anyway, you've partially solved my mystery with your findings.

I've located a vender with several forend guide rings, however they are all the same size. Neither of us knows if there are different sizes; or if there are, which is for the 16 ga.

I don't expect you to tear down your guns, but if you are able to provide any measurements of the one on your 16 (perhaps the length & width with calipers, or a comparison with that to your 12 ga. it would be very much appreciated!
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Gamemaster32
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Gamemaster32 »

I'm getting nowhere fast in the perpetual search for the elusive 16 ga. Forend Guide Ring, and am trying my best not to buy any more parts that don't fit, which will inevitably end up in my "useless parts bin."

Can anyone provide me with a confirmed source for this part, or provide some basic measurements in order to arrive at the likely size through the process of elimination? Any help will be appreciated.

TIA
Researcher
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Researcher »

I have gone through some old Remington parts lists from 1940 and 1946 and it appears that part No. 169 Fore-end Guide Ring and part No. 170 Fore-end Guide Ring Screw are only applicable to The "Sportsman" they are not part of a Model 11. My three guns are all The "Sportsman".

The 12-, 16- and 20-gauge Model 11s and The "Sportsman"s are built on gauge specific receivers and the magazine tubes are different diameters.
Tom Wheaton
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Tom Wheaton »

Hello. I looked at a couple dozen of my sportsman and model 11's. I found no rings on any of my model 11. And only a few rings on my latest of production sportsman models. The only thing that I did notice, is that my guns with these rings do not have the forearm guide pins. Maybe this is the key. I didn't find a ring on any of my 20GA, as they are all 3 bird and older. Long story made short. A 12GA ring measured 1.325"o.d. on a 1" mag tube. 16 GA were 1.228 od and found one with 1.230" o.d. both 16 GA mag tubes measured .935. This should help you somewhat. Tom
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Gamemaster32
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Gamemaster32 »

Researcher & Tom:

I can’t thank you enough for your time and effort in educating me with such valuable information. You’ve really helped me sort through a myriad of variables and unknowns in order to help solve this “mystery.”

From the beginning:
The Model 141 is my main focus, but I’ve also come to appreciate the art and beauty of the Model 11. Some time ago I fell in love with this 16 ga. Model 11 in a shop’s rack and got it for a bargain. It was so beautiful, the owner and I couldn’t readily determine if it had been professionally refinished. After field-stripping/cleaning, I later concluded its likely all-original and was barely used, as it’s virtually like-new.
But while reassembling, I “decided” it had a minor problem. Little-to-no pressure was required on the barrel/forend as was on all other 11s I’ve ever handled; my Sportsman’s barrel protrudes ½” or more above the receiver and requires significant pressure in order to seat the barrel & reassemble the forend. There’s not much tension at all with this 16.

So...my initial thought was the recoil spring must be either no good due to long-term compression, or the wrong one. Subsequently begins the search for a replacement recoil spring...some sources indicated there was indeed a recoil spring for the 3 shot Sportsman, and a different one for the 5 shot Model 11. Remington helped me locate an extremely knowledgeable vintage parts dealer who informed me there is only one size spring for both models. He subsequently sent me one and...It was the same size as the one already in the shotgun! (Yup, into the “useless parts bin” it went).

So...I then decided it must be missing the Forend Guide Ring like that on the 12 ga. Sportsman; after all, the added thickness of the Forend Guide Ring would likely be just the medicine for proper spring tension (however, as stated the arm is like-new, and there is no indication of a guide ring ever having been originally installed)! As also previously mentioned, I’ve observed some 11s with the forend guide ring, and some without (never noting which were Sportsman and which were 11s)...I think you’ve nailed it here Tom; I have noticed the absence of guide pins on several forends...likely on Sportsman models!

Again, all the schematics, photos, forums, parts listings, etc. at my disposal had left me scratching my head.

You gentlemen have now confirmed two of my suspicions :idea: :
1. Model 11s do not have forend guide rings; some Sportsman models do.
2. Model 11s have guide pins in the forearms; Sportsman do not.

I’m now still faced with the lack of tension issue :?: ...

Researcher; at your convenience are you able to determine if the Recoil Spring is in fact the same part for both models; or if there are two different part numbers (one being longer than the other)?
I’ve never attempted to fire it...maybe I just need to go out and put some rounds through it to see if it functions. On the other hand it’s so sweet I don’t want to chance cracking wood or doing damage.

Sorry for being so long-winded, but again, I can’t thank you guys enough!
Tom Wheaton
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Tom Wheaton »

Hello again. Some of my sportsman models do have guide pins. And even the guns that have the guide rings, still have the holes for the guide pins in both the wood and the receivers. Like I said, my guns have one or the other, but not both. Later, Tom
Tom Wheaton
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Tom Wheaton »

I measured several 16ga springs. Varied from 6⅜ to 6⅞. The longest spring was on a gun with a guide ring. Its hard to say what would be proper from the factory. I come to no conclusion between sportsman and 11. All seam very similar. I would look for a spring around 6½". Tom
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Gamemaster32
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Gamemaster32 »

Tom Wheaton wrote:I measured several 16ga springs. Varied from 6⅜ to 6⅞. The longest spring was on a gun with a guide ring. Its hard to say what would be proper from the factory. I come to no conclusion between sportsman and 11. All seam very similar. I would look for a spring around 6½". Tom
Tom:

Hmmm...my two springs measure 6 3/16" & 6 1/4". As stated, they provide almost no tension during reassembly; as I've already speculated If they were to be installed over a Forend Guide Ring, the added thickness of the ring would bring the O.A.L. likely somewhere in the 6 1/2" range which would be perfect!

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but now believe there are (as led to believe originally) very likely two different 16 ga. Recoil Springs; a shorter one for the Sportsman (which is in my Model 11 & much too short), and a longer one made for the 5 shot Model 11 without the guide ring.

I believe you have now conclusively solved my "mystery :!: "

I'm also thinking maybe your 6 7/8" spring situated over the guide ring requires QUITE a bit of pressure when assembling...due to the fact that it's probably the longer one I need for my 11? (hint; hint :wink: )

Perhaps Researcher can provide something difinitive regarding original Remington parts lists.

Thanks again!
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Gamemaster32
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Gamemaster32 »

Does anybody know of a reliable source for:

1. A longer recoil spring (6 1/2" minimum) for the above 16 ga. Model 11

2. A new (old-stock) standard contour satin forend for a 12 ga. 11-87 Premiere

TIA
Matt38
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Re: 16 ga. Mod 11 Question

Post by Matt38 »

Hello all,

First post here. I just got a Model 11 Sportsman (3 shot) in 16 gauge and am rebuilding it as it was neglected. I cannot find a recoil spring for the life of me. Any ideas?

I ordered one from Numrich but it was the wrong one I believe. It was about 1" longer than the magazine tube.
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