Model 1900

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Michigander
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Model 1900

Post by Michigander »

My neighbor, being in his nineties and unable to swim in these waters, has asked me to poke around on the Internets and do some research on his old shotgun. I've done some basic searching, but so far all I've been able to determine is that it's a 12 ga. Model 1900.

I'm hoping some kindly people on this forum will be willing to share their knowledge with me, but if not, no hard feelings. What, if anything, can you tell me about this shotgun?

Additional information: barrel length is 30" and marked ///KF20; serial number is 347965. I won't be able to provide pictures, but if any more information is needed or desired, I'll do my best to get it.

The kinds of things we're hoping to learn are: date and place of manufacture, rarity, potential value and any other kinds of trivia a knowing person is willing to share.

Thanks in advance!
Researcher
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Location: Washington and Alaska

Re: Model 1900

Post by Researcher »

Remington Model 1900s are a simplified, cheaper, version of the Model 1894, built on the same patents -- No. 528,507 and No. 528,508 both granted Oct. 30, 1894. The Model 1900s were all K-Grades, with E added to the designation if the gun had ejectors and D if it had Damascus barrels -- K-, KE-, KD-, or KED-Grades. The K- and KE-Grades had Remington Steel barrels. The Model 1900s had a snap-on/off forearm and their serial numbers were in the 300,000 range, often preceded with a stock letter Q.

You need to check out Charles G. Semmer's book Remington Double Shotguns. It is available from The Double Gun Journal, 800-447-1658 for $49 plus $10 shipping and handling. It is invaluable if you are going to shoot, invest, collect or play in the Remington double gun field. According to Charles serial number chronology, the gun in question would be from 1904.

Remington Arms Co. stamped the actual pellet counts of their test patterns on the rear barrel lug of their Model 1889 hammer doubles and their Model 1894 and 1900 hammerless doubles. If the number is three digits, that is the count, if the number is two digits a leading 3 is implied. From surviving hang-tags we know the standard load they used to target 12-gauge guns was 1 1/4 ounces of #8 going 511 pellets to the load. My 12-gauge KE-Grade Model 1900 is stamped 33 on the left and 24 on the right. That would be 333/511 = 65% left and 324/511 = 64% right, or about improved modified in both barrels. The chokes measure .027" in both barrels of that gun.

By the end of the first decade of the 20th Century, Remington saw that the future laid with their John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading Gun (later known as the Model 11) and their John D. Pedersen designed Remington Repeating Shotgun (later known as the Model 10). So, they concluded a deal with Norvell-Shapleigh Hardware Co. of St Louis, for their entire inventory of break-action shotguns in inventory and in process, on February 3, 1910. There must have been a lot of guns involved, because the records show 3206 Model 1894s, and 16435 Model 1900s shipped in 1910. The 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalogue was the last one to include the doubles, and there was a version of the 1909 catalogue that only had the Remington Autoloading Shotgun, the Remington Repeating Shotgun, and the Autoloading Repeating Rifle.

I don't think anyone left alive knows what those codes on the bottom of the barrels of Remington Arms Co. doubles really mean. No one, including Charles Semmer who wrote the book Remington Double Shotguns, has really decoded those letters and hashmarks down the barrel tube bottoms. I've posted this information before, add these to what you have and what is in Charles' book, maybe a pattern will emerge.

1906 12-gauge KE-Grade has /// K E Y

1907 12-gauge KE-Grade has L K E Y

1909 16-gauge KE-Grade has X K E A1

1896 12-gauge AE-Grade has P A

1906 12-gauge FE Trap has /// F E G 13

1895 12-gauge BE-Grade has B J and a poorly struck E or an F

1907 CEO-Grade 12-gauge has /// M

1905 DEO-Grade 16-gauge has X O

In some cases you can get the grade as in the KE and FE. My BE-Grade has Chain Damascus barrels, and on the Remington Damascus salesman sample the Chain Damascus is labeled CHAIN J. So, B for the grade, J for the barrel material and E for ejectors?!? Hmmm....

Just from looking at my little list there seems to be a difference in the markings on the early guns, 1895 and 1896 and those from the later years 1905 to 1909. Anyone willing to share marks on 1897 to 1904 guns? I also noted that in my later guns both 16-gauges have an X and several of the 12-gauges have ///. I see Semmer shows the barrels of 12-gauge KE-Grade 361550 and it has the same /// K E Y as my slightly earlier 12-Gauge KE-Grade.
Michigander
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: Model 1900

Post by Michigander »

Thank you for that reply Researcher. That's just the kind of thing he's looking for. I'll pass your reading recommendation along as well.

If anyone else is willing to share their guns' dates and markings, that would be great. I admit, I'm getting just as curious about finding some pattern.

So far, I'm working on the assumption that:
///= ?? -Possibly some kind of inspector's mark?
K=Remington Steel
F=Trap -My neighbor's gun features a tigerstripe wood stock, which strikes me as the kind of showy thing you'd want in a trap gun. Is there another feature or clue we could look for to confirm this?
E=Ejectors -His gun has no ejectors, unfortunately.
20= ?? My first thought was that it corresponded to choke, but number designations following the ///XYZ don't seem typical, going by Researcher's list.

As an aside: what a sturdy old gun! I had been planning on buying an AR-15 for myself at some point, but holding that shotgun the other day, and his Remington-made 1903 Springfield... they have the weight of substance to them. I tip my hat to Remington. I don't know much about the company, but these old guns are something to be proud of.
dieNusse1
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Location: Mishawaka, IN

Re: Model 1900

Post by dieNusse1 »

The information/examples Researcher supplied applies to both model 1900's as well as 1894's. The top three examples he offers show variations of 1900 K grade model barrel stampings while the bottom five show variations found on 1894 grades.

Remington did not make a trap grade model 1900. Your 1900 is a K grade equipped with extractors. If it were stamped KE it would have ejectors. The addition of D following either K or KE would indicate damascus barrels.

As Researcher rightly states the meaning of /// or F20 is not known and is lost in the mists of time. Maybe with enough examples some sort of pattern might emerge.
dieNusse1
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:12 pm
Location: Mishawaka, IN

Re: Model 1900

Post by dieNusse1 »

As an aside here are the prices for the various models in 1906 - 1909.

1900's
K - $30
KE - $35
KD - $35
KED - $40

1894's
A - $45
AE - $50
B grade and above -- more $$ - up to about $250 for an EE grade gun. A lot of money in those days.
Last edited by dieNusse1 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michigander
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: Model 1900

Post by Michigander »

I've had another chance to get my hands on the gun again. I thought Researcher or somebody else might be interested to know that it isn't marked:

K
F20

It's actually marked:
K
F
20

It doesn't look anything like the other trapguns I've seen pictures of (no engraving), but there is no mistaking the F for anything other than what it is. It is not a poorly stamped E and it hasn't been worn off. Also, when taking a bead, it doesn't have an extreme amount of drop; which I understand the non-trap models all feature to their detriment.

If it's certain that Remington didn't make a trap 1900 the F must stand for something different in this series.
dieNusse1
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:12 pm
Location: Mishawaka, IN

Re: Model 1900

Post by dieNusse1 »

You are correct - it's not a trap model. The model 1900 was not offered in a trap version. The Remington trap and pigeon grade guns have one unique feature - many the lack the safety. The safety slot was filled in and "hidden" by engraving. The trap and pigeon guns were all model 1894's and ranged from C to F grade depending on the amount of engraving, quality of wood, checkering etc.

As for grade stamping on the '94's -- it is a single letter (A, B, C etc) and is located in at least three areas -- on the water table across from the S/N, the underside of the trigger guard tang and in the stock recess for the trigger guard tang. On many guns there is little or no indication of grade on the barrels.

Many, if not most, of the barrel stampings are in large part still a mystery. We may never know what they mean. The F does not make it a trap gun as the 20 does not make it a 20 gauge. Yes, there are examples of 1900's in 20 gauge but these are very few and may have been special order.

As to your original questions: The gun was made in 1904 in Ilion, NY. As to rarity and value: there were 98,507 1900's made between 1900 and 1910 and one in 1911 and, as far as I know, there is no break-down as to the number of each of the four versions. Value would be dependent on condition.

Still, the 1900 is a fine gun and I've enjoyed mine greatly. It has been very productive on pheasants and other small game.
Last edited by dieNusse1 on Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
dieNusse1
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:12 pm
Location: Mishawaka, IN

Re: Model 1900

Post by dieNusse1 »

I guess I should have listed various 1900 barrel stampings from the Semmer book as well as from my collection.

Quite opposite to the 1894, there is no grade stamping on the action body as far as I know -- only on the barrel. All of the stampings below are vertical although I'll list them horizontally.

XKF2, (star)KG3, LKEDY, PXKE15, PXKF15, XKDY, KED, ///KEDY, KEDY, and two that Charles Semmer listed as KED but are missing the E -- XKDW and LKDP.

The meanings of F, A1, (star), L, Y, P, W, G, X, 2, 3, 15, 20 and /// seem to be unknown. Inspector marks? Gauge? Worker ID? Proof marks? Choke? Production date? Barrel length?

The X and /// have been mentioned as indicating 16 gauge and 12 gauge on both 1900's and 1894's but ?????
Last edited by dieNusse1 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Researcher
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Location: Washington and Alaska

Re: Model 1900

Post by Researcher »

The Remington trap and pigeon grade guns have one unique feature - the lack of a safety. The safety slot was filled in and "hidden" by engraving. The trap and pigeon guns were all model 1894's and ranged from C to F grade depending on the amount of engraving, quality of wood, checkering etc.
Only the Pigeon Guns (CEO, DEO and EEO), as listed in the 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalogue, were really no safety guns, and even the picture of a CEO used for them shows a safety button.

Image

And, as shown as a "Trap Gun" in the 1903-04 and 1904-05 Remington Arms Co. catalogues --

Image

The "F.E. Trap" Gun and the "C.E.O. Trap" Gun are listed and pictured in the 1906 through 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalogues as having "automatic safety". The pictures of the "F.E. Trap" Gun and the "C.E.O. Trap" Gun in the catalogues show a safety button and between the 1907 and 1908 catalogues they change the pictures to show the newer style, dished out, safety button. 1906 --

Image

Image
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