Trapdoor Remington?

[kiltabar]

I have what appears to be an Allin Conversion Model 1866 rifle with some interesting variations (to me anyway). It is .50 caliber, dated 1866 over eagle head on the bolt and 1865 on the lock plate. The lock plate also has the eagle crest over U.S. and is further marked with "REMINGTON'S ILION NY". The blued barrel measures ~32.5" to the breech face and has two barrel bands. The muzzle has a slight annular groove about the bore that I assume is a liner. The stock bears much resemblance to my 1873 Springfield Trapdoor stock as the cross-section dimensions throughout their length are similar. The overall length of the stock (48.5") and gun (52") are also the same as the 1873, as is the two-band spacing. So, it does not appear to be a cut-down 3-band version, as the 2-band spacing is correct. There is a faint rectangular-shaped cartouche in the usual place, but is unreadable. It has a 7-groove ramrod and the tang of the buttplate is marked U.S.

The gun is in NRA excellent condition. While Flayderman's lends some discussion to shortened-barrel versions of the 1866, there is no discussion of Remington 2-band 1865 contract rifles (only 1861's, made by Remington between 1864-66) or Remington Allin conversions, nor can I find anything in my limited library or on the Internet about Remington trapdoors. This piece resembles a "Zouave Rifle" in many respects as noted above, but differs significantly as well, e.g. no brass furniture and no patchbox.

So, what do I have? Is this original and if so, how many were made? Did Remington manufacture a 2-band contract rifle? If so, should I assume this is a Springfield Arsenal Allin conversion, or did Remington manufacture/ convert trapdoors?

Thank you.

[Dick Hosmer]

You appear to possibly have a Springfield M1866 Short Rifle, with a Remington contract lockplate. SA did, around 1870/71, shorten some (around 1100) 3-band 1866s, having excessive muzzle wear/damage, to the 52" length of the current Model 1868. However, this type of work was also done by various outside parties, such as Bannerman, Whitney, etc. Some of these have "ugly" band spacing, as well as excessively thinned wrists.

Does your stock have a filled band spring cutout where the old middle band was fitted? Does the cleaning rod screw in, and is it about 1-1/8" from the muzzle when fully stowed?

Remington never made trapdoors, however the reverse IS true, since SA did make/assemble several varieties of Remington's rolling block. The 1866 Allin is an interesting gun, which exists in numerous different minor permutations, including built from parts, for sale to the French. To the assemblers, a lockplate was simply a lockplate.

[kiltabar]

Dick:
Thank you for the quick reply. The thing is, this is not a 3-band converted to 2-band; it's an original 2-band rifle. The cleaning rod does not screw in, and it is only ~1/4" in from the end of the barrel. As far as the thinned stock, I don't have a point of reference except my 1873 Trapdoor, and the two are very similar in overall length and sectional dimensions throughout the stock's length, including the wrist.
Thanks for your help,
Dave Hanes

[Dick Hosmer]

You're welcome, Dave.

SA did not make NEW 2-band 1866s. The rifles referred to were shortened due to muzzle damage. The stocks utilized were M1863 type one (which had used clamping bands) so there should be no filled spring cut (you did not respond to that question). The rods on genuine SA-converted short 66s do thread in, just like the full-length rifle, and have a similar set-back when stowed.

So, more questions: does your rod have threads? Is there a keeper plate in the stock? You will have to pull the trigger guard to see this. The bottom of the rod hole frequently gets packed full of crud which prevents the rod from going in all the way. In profile, the rod head itself should look just like your 1873.

As to the wrist, if it looks like your 1873 it has not been thinned. This abuse usually occurs only on rifles where the middle band was left in its' original position, on non-SA shortened arms.

You may find some helpful info on my webpage. Go to http://www.picturetrail.com/sa4570af. My (SA done) short 1866 (purchased from Ed Hull) is not yet pictured, but the other models are. You MIGHT (cheap plug here) even be interested in my book.

Several firms apparently made up short 1866s. For years, I had one which was "almost" right, but finally did not pass ALL of the tests. The Remington lock IS a bit of a clue to non-SA assembly, but not necessarily a deal-breaker IF ALL else was right. In any event, AFAIK, Remington themselves did NO such work.

[SharpsShtr]

Dick,

I was looking around your website and a question came to mind. Concerning the Remington Transformation Rolling Blocks that were converted and sold to the S.C., N.Y., and TX militias - what type of cartridge pouch would have issued with them to hold the .58 Berdan cartridges? Would such things be covered in your book? Thanks so much,



Matt

[Dick Hosmer]

While the emphasis is on the rifles - and I am a Springfield collector, only 'involved' with Remingtons because of the several RBs made at SA in the 1867-72 period - there is an acoutrements chapter. I cannot speak for the transformed rifle, but the .58 cal M1865 "First Allin" used CW pouches, of both 1861 and 1864 pattern, with wooden blocks sitting atop the tin boxes. The first .50-70s used a similar adaptation, before going to the Dyer and Hagner pouches. Some McKeevers (1874) were made in .50-70, and the later Frazier pattern pouch was widely used by those militia/NG troops having .50-70s

The book - which was vetted by Roy Marcot and Ed Hull, among others - contains chapters on each of the SA-RBs. I own an 1867 Navy Cadet, both 1870 Navies, an 1870 Trials rifle, and an 1871 Army. I lack (but would like to obtain) a transformed rifle and the Trials carbine. I purposely do not have an 1867 Navy carbine, or the NYS arms, since they were not made at SA.

[SharpsShtr]

Dick,

Thanks so much for the information. I'll take some cases with me to the local Civil War sutler and take a look at his cartridge pouches. I'm not so much a collector as one who is a sucker for old guns who talk to him. I don't have a Springfield per se (just a Sharps carbine converted by the SA) but I would love to stumble across a .50-70 Trapdoor. I was too slow and let one pass by some years ago and still regret it. Again, thank you.



Matt