1879 Argentine factory overrun???

[charlielima]

I have tried 8 or 9 times to get the numbers to stay lined up. I give up. Hope ypu can make sense of it.
CL

[John Boy]

Barrel measurments from a '79 Argentino (43 Spanish -Remington) I have:
Barrel - 35 13/16"
Bore - 0.431
Grooves - 0.436
Trigger Pull - 11# 10.5oz

[charlielima]

Barrel measurments from a '79 Argentino (43 Spanish -Remington) I have:
Barrel - 35 13/16"
Bore - 0.431
Grooves - 0.436
Trigger Pull - 11# 10.5oz
Mine is either a re-finished version ( which I am starting to believe since the bluing is starting to wear off the action above the barrel & the sides ) or one of ther over runs mentioned in the book. There is evidence that there was a bayonet lug on the barrel that was removed when the rifle was refinished.
There is no Argentine military marking on the octagon portion of the barrel & the area shows no indication of grinding them off. If they have been, then someone went to the trouble to re-machine all the flats to equal dimensions & reinstall the barrel.
Since there are 5 lands & grooves the measurements I can get are not perfectly 180 defgrees across the slug. They are : lands .437, grooves .442. . bigger than .43 spanish Smaller than 44-77 and close to 44-90 Remington. Brass that fits the chamber is some what confusing in that the OAL is 44-90 Remington length, but the distance from rim to shoulder is the same as 44-77 ( Buffalo Arms 44-90 brass has to have the shoulder set back in order to chamber). diameter of case body at the rim & the shoulder is proper for the 44.90, so I have a 44-90 witha longer neck & shorter body.
Twist is 1x20. I have been shooting the same bullets I use in my Lone Star re-barreled 44-77. Lyman 350 gr. GG & a Paper Patch from a KAL mold. The paper patch seems to be a little too long ( Lone Star is 1x16 twist) but the Lyman is shooting real good as in a test shoot the other day I got a 5 shot group @ 100 yds of .856. There were two seperate sub-groups of 2 shots in virtually the same hole, these 4 shots were sub half inch for the four shots. This bullet isn't too good in the 44-77. This is not the first time this rifle has "one holed" this bullet.
The barrel length is exactly 36 inches. Trigger pull is 72 oz. or 4.5 lbs measured with an RCBS trigger pull gage (non-digital).
I have a new NEI mold for a 470 gr. 43 spanish bullet I am going to try to see if a bullet of this size shoots any better.
CL

[rudybolla]

I have owned probably eight Argentine models over the years . A couple still had original tinned receivers and little to no finish. The others had the heavy-handed reblue and refinished stocks. My observations of the latter seems to indicate that the three rifles with the unmarked knoxform were never sent to Argentina or maybe just not issued, as they did not have the usual pitting along the barrel/wood line and on edges of tang. The three MODELO ARGENTINO marked examples all had this pitting. So are they factory overruns or was it the Argentinians who stamped them with MODELO ARGENTINO?

[charlielima]

I am certainly NOT an expert on these rifles nor claim to "know-it-all" by any means. From what I have been able to read is that if the knoxform is stamped on the barrel it was sent to Argentina. The stamping was put on by Remington. The pitting also would indicate use by Argentina military personell or at least was in the country and either issued or at least stored in an arsenal there.
No knoxform would be either removed by who ever re-finished the rifle (& did a professional job of keepingt he sides of the octagon equal all the way around) or one that never had it & was never intended to be sent to Argentina, i.e. contract overrun, and sold elsewhere.
Who ever did the one I have not only blued the entire rifle, did an interesting job of chambering but also rebored the barrel. The bore is as nice & clean as some of my newer stuff. not dark & pitted as a couple of original RB's I have or had (one was the rebarreled Lone Star 44-77) or the 1866 Trapdoor I just picked up. So someone did some extra work on this one.
As of now, for me at least, it is an interesting rifle, at the present time it is the most accurate BPCR I have, including 3 new ones & the rebarreled Lone Star, (still working on loads for these) so I am going to have fun shooting it. Who knows, I may show up at Quigly with it some year & PO some folks for not having the "correct" rifle.
CL

[John Boy]

Charlie, 1st of all, the Argentine Infantry and Police did not do much shooting, so the bores on the 1879's were usually in plus condition. Anyway, they contracted for 43 Spanish and then decided they wanted 7mm's. So they surplused the 43's. The rifles went to 3 locations
* Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham
* Bannermann
These locations scrubbed the Argentine markings - reblued the poor ones and on many, rechambered them for 44-77's
Those that went back to Remington were only reblued ... the Argentine markings were left on the rifles

Yours is probably one from SH&G or Bannermann

[JV Puleo]

With all due respect... where did that story come from?
The Argentine RBs weren't sold until the late 1950s and early 1960s. SH&G had been out of business for many years and Bannerman's, which was only a ghost of its former self, folded some time around 1950. Neither of them had anything to do with the Argentine rifles. Different lots were brought in by a number of importers, including Interarms and Golden Statebut its unlikely they refinished the guns either. The best guess so far is that they were refinished in Argentina at different times and for different purposes, which explains the wide difference in quality ... but even that is a matter of conjecture. The truth is, we simply don't know who, when or where it was done...but it surely wasn't done by Bannerman or SH&G.

Neither firm reblued any Argentine rifles... Remington didn't either. In fact, I've never heard of Remington refinishing any significant number of its blackpowder military rifles.

[John Boy]

JV, I have a gun crank collecter friend (800 plus long arms) whose mother bought one for him as a kid from Bannermann in the late '40's or early '50's that had the markings scrubbed and was reblued. As for

Neither firm reblued any Argentine rifles... Remington didn't either. In fact, I've never heard of Remington refinishing any significant number of its blackpowder military rifles.

Two brothers, whose father worked for Remington, collected and became one of the largest military RRB collectors in the US had one in his collection that I bought. Per Don, one of the brothers, this rifle was in his collection since he was a kid and told me it came from the Remington factory refurbished from a supply of surplus rifles. It has all the Argentino markings, bluing is 98+, bore is mint, wood has a few ding marks only and the oval circled rack number of 836 is still faintly visible

Roy Marcot can vouch for the Muno brothers creditability. FYI: If you are interested in buying one of the last known Vatican 'Papal' models in the US, I can put you in touch with Don. It's for sale. The only other known rifle in the US was donated to the Vatican Museum by Don's deceased brother's wife last year

[charlielima]

Barrel measurments from a '79 Argentino (43 Spanish -Remington) I have:
I have a new NEI mold for a 470 gr. 43 spanish bullet I am going to try to see if a bullet of this size shoots any better.
CL

To follow up on this one: the NEI bullet is too long. So far the best accuracy (see previous post) is with the Lyman 350 gr. they state is for the 43 Mauser & the 44-77. Proved to me that I can still shoot good with iron sights, in spite of minus 20/40 vision.
I have looked under bright lights with a magnafying glass & can see no indication that the Argentine knoxform was ever on the barrel (no sign of sufficient grinding to remove it either). Since there is adequate record that Remington sold unmarked Argentine over runs to the public I think there is a possibility that this is one of them. The bluing is wearing off the top of the action above the barrel & looks like worn down case colors or maybe a nicer grade of rust.
Since the chamber does not match the 44-77, 44-90, or .43 spanish & it shoots extremely accurately with the right load, I really don't give a d#*!n what the caliber is. I'm using reformed Norma 45-120 brass cut to 44-90 length, run into my 44-77 die & fireformed. Shooting .445 diameter bullets. Works for me. Still working on a paper patch load.
Curious, if the Argentine army did not shoot much, what did they use in their version of wild west "cowboy & Indian" confrontations? Rocks & bolos maybe?
Have a fun day.
CL

[charlielima]

more info. probably doesn't help or mean much, but----:

Pulled the block, hammer, and lower tang/trigger group out today. wanted to smooth the trigger a little ( note I said smooth as in polish, not grind, acetleyne torch, reshape, etc.. For those that might wonder.)
anyway I found a number stamped on the side of the lower tang behind the trigger. The number is covered up by the stock so it is not visible until the stock or the trigger/tang is removed. The number is U8419. The "U" is partially worn off so I don't know if there was anything in front of it or not.
No way of knowing if this is an original part or a replacement. Part # or assembly number ??