First breach fired rolling block found ?

[Rollingblock66]

I own a rolling block with museum inventory brass tag #66 on the butt stock. It is listed on the 1920 inventory list. Would it be safe to say that this is the first 50 70 rolling block breech rim fire ever made? I am basing this question on the fact that all the earlier tags listed on the 1920 inventory list are not breach loading rolling blocks. Tag 65 is a split breach rolling block. There is no serial number and the patent dates are Dec 8th 1863 , Nov 15 th 1864 and jan y 3rd 1865 they are stamped on the left side of the gun not on the tang , also all wood and hardware are stamped with matching #10's and Remington & Son's .Thanks

[ehull]

From your brief description you have ONE of the earliest of "Remington System" rolling block rifles. The patent markings you mention are those on the earliest of guns. Curiously, I have a similar carbine and it has the number 10 on the barrel, although the frame and other parts are numbered 12. There is another known rifle serial numbered 2. Our forum members would appreciate a more full description of your rifle (i.e. barrel length, total length, how many barrel bands, etc.) as well as photos.

[Rollingblock66]

Here is the overall gun with 39" barrel

[Rollingblock66]

Here is the tag on the butt stock and measure from butt

[Rollingblock66]

Here is the patent dates on the lft side of gun not on the tang

[Rollingblock66]

Here is the left side hardware note the # 10's on hardware and wood

[ehull]

Good photos--thanks from all of us. Yes, that's one of the earliest type "Remington System" rifles, or more properly "rifle musket" with that barrel length. Note that the hammer and breech block pivot pins are held in by screws. Is there a number on the barrel left side just in front of the frame? Please post a photo of the open breech, to show the firing pin and extractor.

[Rollingblock66]

Here is the pin and chamber view. Also I would like to know if anybody knows what the reason for keeping these guns in the museum. We're they saving the first one made of each model. Thanks

[Rollingblock66]

This the number stamped on the barrel directly in front of the sights

[Dick Hosmer]

Sorry to be dense, but which 'museum' is being mentioned? Also, can you elaborate on the caliber? I've looked (briefly) through Hoyem's book and did not find a sure reference. I know it is not correct, but does a normal CF .50-70 round fit the chamber?

Too bad about the sheared pin-retaining screws on such a GORGEOUS rifle. Hopefully they could be restored - also, a lot of the rust in the shot with the "28" can be made to go away without harming the finish.

Thanks for sharing such a wonderful, and rare, rifle.

[Rollingblock66]

I had the chamber casted it holds a 50/70 rim fire. The museum this gun was held in was at Remington in Ilion NY. It has been confirmed on the 1920 inventory list and sold to the public in 1948 ish Also I have had a gun smith add the missing pins since these photos were taken. It seems logical to me that this gun was the (actual first one made) of its Breach type since it lived in the Remington factory until 1948 with brass tag 66 on it . I'm just looking for to see if anybody out there could confirm this. Thanks for any help on this matter

[ehull]

Once again, thanks for the added photos. I suspect that someone at the Rem Museum or archive did some switching of parts. You have number 10 frame and I have number 10 barrel and forestock (carbine). I have number 12 frame. You have number 28 barrel. The rear sight on your rifle barrel looks very like other early rifle sights, so the higher number probably just indicates a progression of arms as the type was developed. I would not go so far as to say that yours is the "earliest" gun because number 2 with matching numbers still exists in a private collection. A variety of these rifles was made for trials purposes in the U.S. and foreign countries before production began in 1867. Your .50 RF caliber is the same as the early .50 Swedish (12x42R), which is essentially the same as the .50-70 but RF, so it is possible your rifle is an 1867 prototype for that model (although the 39" barrel is about 1-1/2" too long). Your info certainly adds to our knowledge of the development of the Remington System in those early years.

[Dick Hosmer]

Having now spent a bit more time with Hoyem ("History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition", Vol. 1), I believe that your rifle is apparently chambered for either RFR25 (.50-70 Peabody, 1862-72, 1.67" case) RFR529 (.50-60 Joslyn, ca. 1865, 1.47" case) RFR30 (".52-70" Sharps, ca. 1865, 1.47" case) or else something VERY similar. All were related, in one degree or another, to government experimentation. So far I have found no "Remington" cartridge of the period. Again thanks for sharing what has to be a very rare rifle.

[Gene Myszkowski]

I am a member of the Remington Society Research Team that found the 1920 Museum catalog and have a copy. The entry reads 66 Rem B L rifle 50 RF cal 39" bbl Case 21 12-4 . The listing was put together 11.1.20 by Melbourne Chambers. The guns were listed in rack order as tag #1 reads Rem rep shotgun 12 ga Model 10 ..... One would have to go through the entire listing to see if any others were earlier. I know that the Remington Lees were not in order as I reserched them very closely for my book on the Remington Lees. They had many experimental versions that were sold off in the 1948 - 1950 period. I have tag #126 which is a Sharps Lee reworked with a Remington barrel in 43 Spanish and a unusual bolt handle.

The 1948 listing reads - 66 Box 41 Remington Arms Co. Rider Rolling Bl 39" 50 RF with no notation to "Retain". That lisiting was done by C. C. Loomis in a memo to D. S. Foote concerning Firearms Inventory Bldg 43-2 and recommended that 722 arms be sold. The actual count was 687 guns were sold or scrapped. Wish I was around to pick up some of these. I did a Journal article 3rd Q 2008 about the Brass Tag Remingtons.

Gene

[Rollingblock66]

Thanks Gene that's vey helpful. I have a friend who has obtained a copy of the list he informed the the first breach load rolling block was tag 66 and the last breach load was number 616. What I don't know is why the guns were retained and if the first one's made were the ones they one's retained, do you have any pictures of the racks these were stored on? If so I would appreciate a copy of one. Thanks Again Andre