No 1 (50-70) with No Remington Address or Patent Date?

[John Boy]

Acquired a No 1 Musket (3 band) in 50-70 that has no Remington Address or Patent Date on the barrel or the tang


There are only these markings on the rifle:
* Remington Inspector 'P' on the barrel - receiver - trigger guard and shoehorn butt plate
* Lot number on the inside of the upper and lower tag. Not the normal repeating 10,000 block of numbers but 'F 97975'
* Armory Rack No on butt stock
* Bands: Middle band has the normal forward 'U' and the 1st and 3rd bands have this mark that I cannot determine:


Anyone know what this mark represents - inspector, country or ? (white paint applied to sharpen the mark)

Other specifics:
* Round barrel that is 35.25"
* Argentine type sight but with an extender in the staff that can be raised to 1600yds
* Not the half cock safety when the hammer is released manually
* Chamber is a true 50-70. Cerrosafe casting of chamber is 1.75" and 6 different 50-70 rounds of the 1800's era chambered perfectly

Yes, the stock has a poorly glued crack but an easy fix. Bore is Mirror New and the wood has dings but is solid and no other cracks

Any information to further identify the rifle will be sincerely appreciated - especially the crown mark.
Thanks and My Regards
John

[Yellowhouse]

Am repeating what was said over on SASS forum. Boy, this looks like a task for Roy Marcot.

[John Boy]

Thanks Yellowhouse

[John Boy]

Update ...

I read Layman's book again last night (for the 3rd time) paying particular attention to anything that said 50-70 ... here's the recap:
* A lot of 1868 & 1869 models were supplied to Springfield Armory for conversion from 58 Berdan to 50-70 by inserting a liner in the barrel - Nope, this one is not one of them
* US Navy in 1869 ordered what was to be the Model 1870 Navy in 50-70 with 32 5/8" barrel, 2 barrel bands, steel cap and a bayonet lug - Nope, this barrel is 35.25 with 3 bands and no bayonet lug
* The 1871 US Army Model was chambered in 50-70 (markings specific) with the secondary sear and 32.5" barrels - Nope, this one has a 35.25" barrel
* NY State Militia order 10,000 in 50-70 with the secondary sear configuration and 36" barrels - Nope, close but this one has the 35.25" barrel and no secondary sear

Now, fast forward to page 87:
"The .50-70 became the first centerfire ... and a number of rolling-block No 1 three band muskets also were chambered for this round." ... BINGO! This rifle is a 50-70 with 3 bands and 2 bands with the unidentifiable crown mark. Who they were sold to ... To Be Determined When the Mark is Identified.

[oldremguy]

Hello John Boy,

Have a question for you. The full lenght photo you have is not to clear, does the forearm have a barrel band spring at the middle barrel band. Also does the rifle have a slide extractor that is fitted in a milled slot along the left side of the barrel at the breech or a rotary type extractor that is fitted to the breech block.

Have a good day,
Matt

[John Boy]

Matt - answers to your Q's:
1. The 1st and 3rd bands are spring -loaded barrel bands
2. Yes - a slide extractor that is fitted in a milled slot along the left side of the barrel at the breech

And I have Great News!

Preface

*** Michigan State Troops http://www.michigan.gov/dmva/1,1607,7-1 ... --,00.html

*** 1860 - Marcellus Hartley founded the Schuyler, Hartley & Graham Sporting Goods Company, NYC, which would later become one of the largest sporting goods companies in the world.
- Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham were partners engaged in the military goods service from 1854 to the 1880's. From 1883 until 1921 it owned Remington.
- 34 SCHUYLER, HARTLEY & GRAHAM PAPERS, 75 ft., 1868-1963
- This collection consists of the correspondence, sales and shipping records, advertisements, and other business records from the Schuyler, Hartley & Graham Company, and his successor, H.K. White. The company was heavily involved in firearms and related goods traded from about 1850 - 1950. The personal papers of Henry K. White and E.C. Brearly are also present. http://www.bbhc.org/hmrl/archive.cfm

*** Don Muno, Remington Society Member #1 and his deceased brother at one time held the largest collection of Remington Rolling Blocks in the United States. Their father worked for Remington and was an avid collector of Rolling Blocks. The father had many friends that also worked there, all having an extensive knowledge and source to information about Remington Rolling Block rifles and transactions. Both brothers became collectors and over the years amassed substantial knowledge of the firearm

The History

Got a call today from a close friend that is an avid collector and firearms historian. For Rolling Blocks, he is only a type collector. Having seen my rifle, he contacted Don Muno for details.

Don was familiar with my rifle being that it was sold from his collection. When told that the rifle had an armory rack number of 220 … Don knew exactly the history of the rifle because the same rifles with the next consecutive rack 221-222 numbers are in his remaining collection.

Subsequent to 1879, a salesman employed by Schuyler, Hartley & Graham Sporting Goods Company executed a 'low ball contract' with the Michigan State Troops, to provide an unknown quantity of 50-70 Remington Rolling Block rifles to their regiments. Reason for the words 'subsequent to 1879' is because the rifles were fitted with the Argentine flip up long range sight

To meet the low ball contract price, Remington either assembled the rifles from whatever overrun parts, spares, etc. left over from previous military contracts or provided the parts to Hartley & Graham who assembled the 50-70 order. Don told my friend Bill, that it was common for Hartley & Graham to assemble RB rifles at their location that had no Remington Address or patent date. Bill attested this to me because he has a 41 Swiss RB in his collection with no address or patent date

That's the history of Rack Rifle 220 in 50-70

[oldremguy]

Hello John Boy,

Here are some photo's of a gun in my collection, it is the same type as yours. The gun is in mint condition, with very good case coloring on the receiver and bluing on the barrel. The rack number on the butt stock is 125. The forearm has no barrel band spring for the middle barel band. The rear sight is the type used on the Argentine rifles.

I believe that Remington may of taken some rolling block rifles back in on trade and made new rifles out of them. I know when Remington got the order from New York State to make the Model 1871 rifles and carbines, that they agreed to buy back about 5000 civil war pistols and muskets from the State of New York to seal the deal.

I believe the rifles were stripped down, the receivers were then repolished removing the Remington markings found on the upper tang before they were recase colored. Then new 50-70 barrels were put back on the receivers. My gun before it was coverted had the side extractor, now it is set up with the rotary extractor.

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See next post for more photo's

[oldremguy]

Hello John Boy,

Here are more photo's of the rifle.

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No markings on upper tang

P1010083.JPG (87.89 KiB) Viewed 9357 times

No middle barrel band spring

P1010084.JPG (166.15 KiB) Viewed 9355 times

Has crown on 1st and 3rd barrel band


Have a good day,
Matt

[John Boy]

Matt - Great Pictures! And thanks for your time and efforts posting them.
A photographer I'm not and looks like it's time for me to buy a new camera
Follow ups:
* Prior to my post with the history of the rifle from Don Muno, had you determined the history of your rifle?
* Does the rack number on your rifle look the same and are the numbers stamped in the same manner on the stock?


What is your lot number on the inside of the tangs? This one is ... F 97975
The two punch marks after the 5 are not on the upper tang. They also don't appear to be pit marks from the casting because there are no grinding marks on the edges of the two dots

[oldremguy]

Hello John,

Here are some more photo's of my gun.

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The upper and lower tang numbers are mismatch, the top is 19509 and the bottom is G 85365

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The bottom of the trigger guard has a "P" for Proof stamped on it

P1010091.JPG (98.29 KiB) Viewed 9254 times

The rack number on my stock is in the same place as yours. The numbers are approximately 5/16" high.


Have a good day,
Matt

[oldremguy]

Hello John,

Here are a couple more photo's

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On the bottom of the butt stock is stamped "H2", don't have any Idea what it could stand for.

P1010096.JPG (53.67 KiB) Viewed 9247 times

Here is a photo of the bore, it is in mint condition and shines like a mirror.


I have been collecting military rolling blocks for 20 years now and before your gun, I have only seen photo's of two other ones like it. Would love to know what the highest rack number would be. I did not know the history behind my rifle, but it looks like it could be from the same lot as yours and the two other ones that are in Don Muno collection.

Have a good day,
Matt

[John Boy]

Evening Matt. Again thanks for the pictures and information. A tad late for better pictures from me but I dug deep and ordered a 10.2 digital today with all the bells and whistles.
If I may, follow up to your items of information:
* Rack Number - your 125 and my 220 had to go to the Michigan State Troop contract. The no 2 is the same die stamp
* Remington Inspector 'P' on trigger guard - Mine is the same
* ...tang numbers are mismatch, the top is 19509 and the bottom is G 85365 - It was my understanding through Don Muno and my historian friend, Bill Roth, that the numbers were always the same. I'll get Don's telephone number and ask him about mismatches and get back to you with his answer.
* Rifle bores - Mine also is mint and shines like a mirror. My muzzle crown had a couple of small dings but I've corrected that. My casting and loading stuff will be hopefully shipped by next week. My intent is to load FFg rounds and the initial range test over a chrono will be at 100-200-300-600 at my NJ club range. I go to Ridgway Rifle Club to visit my Buddy, Homer, at 1000yds and will see how the rifle and the reloads fair at that distance. Am also contemplating writing an article for the SSJ - Homer and my 50-70 No 1 Rolling Block. Will include the history of Don's - yours and my rifles plus the results of shooting 1000yds with a 50-70
* ... the butt stock is stamped "H2", don't have any Idea what it could stand for. -Mine does not have this type of stamp anywhere on the rifle. Here is a possible answer to your 'H2'. Take a look at the Michigan State Troops Website. There were 2 Regiments formed (1872 and 1874) and in each Regiment there were a Company 'H' What the '2' signifies - a guess ... Platoon or their subdivision of a Company?
* The other two rifles that you saw - do you remember the rack no's on them? And as for the total number shipped or the highest rack number - the possible answer may be obtainable from a historian of the Michigan State Troops Assoc, if they have one

I have to say this - Thank You Kindly for sharing your pictures and information. Not being a collector of RB's you have expanded my knowledge substantially. Plus leaving information on the Society forum for others who might possibly have Rack No XXX in their collection

[John Boy]

Matt: A memory lapse information source for the "H2" and total number of rifles Michigan State Troops received:

I know in New Jersey, the Adjutant General of our National Guard, historically prepared an Annual Report. I have copies of NJ's 1889 to 1894 related to the Sea Girt Range which was used after the Creedmoor Range in NY was closed down. In those reports was information about the testing of the 30-40 Krag at the cut over period when the 45-70 was dropped as a military caliber

I'll get in contact with the current Adjutant General of the Michigan National Guard and ask if he will peruse the AG reports in the era that their regiments were formed to see if there was any mention of the Rolling Block contract - it's contract year and the total number of rifles contracted for, plus the definition of the "H2". Maybe even the number of rifles allocated to each Company

Wish me luck!

[oldremguy]

Hello John,

The photo’s of the other two rifles, were on the web some years ago, from different antique gun
dealers. I don’t remember if they showed any photo’s of rack numbers or mention of any rack
numbers in their descriptions on the rifles. Wish now that I would of saved photo’s of them on
my computer. I was wondering if the number “2" on your gun matched the style found on mine.
This is the only gun that I have seen that had that small “P’ stamped on the trigger guard.
Definitely puts the guns in the same group that was bought from Michigan.

As for the tang numbers being mismatched, this happen a lot when rifles were dismantled. The
parts were usually not keep together to be refinished and reassembled at a later time. The parts
were put in bins of the same type. May be your gun used a newly made trigger guard and they
stamped it to match the upper tang. Have a couple of guns in my collection that were sent to
France for the Franco-Prussian War. After the War, Belgium bought some of the rolling block
rifles and converted them from .58 caliber to 43 Spanish, and the tang markings on these guns
don’t match.

Would like to hear now the rifle shoots for you. I think that the Argentine rear sight is a far
better sight then found on other rolling block rifles. Must be nice to have a rifle range out to 600
yards to shoot at. The rifle club I belong to, only goes out to 200 yards. Is the Ridgeway Rifle
Club the one that is located in Pennsylvania. Use to shoot at one located near Kylertown in cental
Pennsylvania, that had a range out to 500 yards. But a few years ago my Uncle moved about a
hour east of there to Lockhaven, so I don’t get a chance to shoot there anymore.

The photo’s that I have taken to post on this forum, were from a 10 year old digital 2.1
Megapixel camera. It has a marco setting for close up photo’s. Then I use the photo shop
program the came with the camera to edit the photo’s. When I have the time and want higher
resolution photo’s I used my 8 Megapixel digital SLR camera with 2 or 3 light lamps. But the
best pictures are taken in sun light, but this time of year in upstate New York, it is a little cold
out. Best of luck in shooting and picture taking.

Have a good day,
Matt

[John Boy]

I was wondering if the number “2" on your gun matched the style found on mine.

The '2' on yours and mine were punched using the same die. My rack number picture is posted up the thread.

Yes, our Cumberland Rifleman club has the longest range in New Jersey. It's a 20 position range and the target risers are in a long pit like the military setup. As for Ridgeway, yes it is in Ridgway, Elk County, PA and a super range worth the drive. Full facility club house (has sleeping and cooking facilities, small or high bore 10 bank silhouettes, another club house on the 1000yd high bore range plus two 50 - 100yd ranges. Dues are $35 a year!

Will post up the results of the rifles range testing, plus whatever find out from the Michigan Adjutant